Author Topic: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment  (Read 68111 times)

pocock

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Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« on: August 19, 2025, 08:30:06 am »
On Sunday, Phil Wyett revealed he is another victim of cyberbullying in the Debian environment.  They were benefiting from his work every day but he didn't feel valued and he has quit.

A lot of people reached out to me after seeing news about Phil.  I don't have time to answer people personally but I did create a summary of the Phil Wyett & Debian controversy on my blog.

Have a look at the screenshot at the bottom, the huge number of packages he co-maintained.  He was very active on the debian-mentors list helping other newcomers.

I'm also updating the full history of Debian, based on debian-private.  New things are added into the timeline at least once per month.

For every one person who suffers like this, there are probably another 20 people who quit very quietly or don't join at all.

The impact of this decline is more acute for projects like POWER porting (and any other non-x86 architecture) because we don't have a lot of people here in the first place.

This is not about Phil and it was never about me either.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2025, 11:37:10 am by pocock »
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MauryG5

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2025, 04:01:28 pm »
But excuse the question, from what you're saying, it seems like they're targeting the developers on our architecture at this point... First with you, now with this other guy... I think we need to report this to the higher-ups, if they exist, otherwise it's going to end badly here...

pocock

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2025, 09:21:24 pm »

It is with the higher-ups

Techrights has many articles about their case in the UK High Court

More details will appear soon I suspect

Remember, it is not only about the people they attack publicly.  It is about thousands of other developers who are using open source software but not making any contributions because they fear public reprisals.

Every time I go into a job at some company, I always find a huge archive of bug fixes and patches that they can't be bothered sharing because of the perceived friction.
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TimKelly

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2025, 03:48:47 pm »
Other than the mailing list posts, I do not know the specifics of why Phil Wyett left.  However, as a straight white male who thinks rainbows are beautiful, I disagree with Daniel's assessment of other events at Debian.  My reading of his posts on his web site and tracking down collaborating evidence of the events he writes about suggests those are cases of a non-straight white male community saying No to straight white males trying to impose their worldviews on others and the straight white males then claim they are victims of oppression and bullying. 

Daniel justified in bringing his concerns about Debian to this forum, and he is entitled to his views, but I encourage forum members to consider his posts in the full context of his web site.

tim

pocock

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2025, 08:44:28 am »
... suggests those are cases of a non-straight white male community saying No to straight white males trying to impose their worldviews on others and the straight white males then claim they are victims of oppression and bullying.   ...

Dr Norbert Preining didn't try to impose a worldview, he simply used the wrong pronoun.  English is not his native language.

If the LGBT+ people want to share rooms with each other at DebConf they are free to do that.  Nobody is asking questions about what they do in their room.  But they are telling straight people we can't bring a partner to DebConf.  We can't share our room with a partner and we can't share the food with a partner.  But they invite LGBT+ people from external groups and they share the money with those people and they call it diversity.  Look at the big fuss about DebConf6 and the DebConf fight.  I was not at DebConf6 so I wasn't involved in that in any way.

Look at the DebConf25 budget:

expenses:travel:bursary:diversity                             10,000 EUR
    ; to do: to be discussed with the bursaries team

expenses:travel:bursary:general                               60,000 EUR
    ; to do: to be discussed with the bursaries team

The money is divided at a ratio of 6 to 1.

The typical straight to LGBT+ ratio in society is 10 to 1

The men to women ratio in Debian is 70 to 1

Therefore, the 6 to 1 ratio for travel funding is a bit odd.

They don't give a list of people who received the money so the rest of us don't know how much work those people do.
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TimKelly

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2025, 12:27:24 pm »

Dr Norbert Preining didn't try to impose a worldview, he simply used the wrong pronoun.  English is not his native language.


Allow me to give a specific example, from your web site:

"In 2021, David Arroyo Menéndez, a researcher from Universidad Rey Juan Carlos and author of the Damegender software posted statistics about diversity on the debian-women mailing list. Steve McIntyre, a former Debian Project Leader, sent a public reply threatening to censor Arroyo Menéndez if he published any more statistics. "

https://danielpocock.com/en/about/

A reading of the actual email exchanges offers a different interpretation.  David Arroyo Menéndez insisted on using binary gender pronouns, which violates the Debian Code Of Conduct.  This was not his first time.  Please read Steve McIntyre's response for yourself:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2021/01/msg00001.html

In short, Mr. Arroyo Menéndez had repeatedly imposed his worldview on the community and the community said please stop.

As noted in a positive light in Daniel's post, Mr. Arroyo Menéndez is the author of Damegender, a tool that "detects" gender in software code

https://github.com/davidam/damegender/

In addition to my B.Sc. in physics, I have a Master's degree in Resource and Environmental Management, a decidedly social science degree that relies heavily on human participation with strict ethical guidelines.  I find nothing in Mr. Arroyo Menéndez's work that holds up to standard practices on collecting such data.

I have thoughts that Mr. Arroyo Menéndez's work could easily be used to identify and target female programmers, as it appears to expressly try to "de-anonymize" contributors from groups who might otherwise face harassment and harm.  He is free to develop such software, of course, but the use of it on communities can reasonably be refused (i.e., "I do not consent to"), without Mr. Arroyo Menéndez claiming to be a victim, or others pointing to this as an example of oppression.

To be honest, I find Mr. Arroyo Menéndez's work to be, well, creepy, not unlike someone wanting to work with children to be closer to them for reasons not all in the interest of the children.

As for the distribution of funds, there is no shortage of groups run by straight white males that misappropriate funds and divert them to personal use.  Your web site identifies two such instances, but you appear to omit the "straight white male" as perpetrator identification.

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2025, 03:13:49 am »
I don't want to be rude, but ideological disputes should not be discussed in the “Operating Systems and Porting” section. Generally speaking, this is a technology forum, not a forum for activists of various stripes, right?
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TimKelly

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2025, 04:14:24 am »
No, this is a reasonable place to discuss Daniel's concerns about Debian, which is the most common operating system that runs on Raptor computers.  He has a position about the leadership of Debian.  I disagree with his interpretation of the events.

What should not be permitted is the constant silencing of these discussions within tech communities, who frequently drive off valuable people by doing so.  We do not live in a vacuum, and we need to speak up against hate and violence. If you do not want to read the discussion, simply do not.

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2025, 05:24:29 am »
Look at the DebConf25 budget:

expenses:travel:bursary:diversity                             10,000 EUR
    ; to do: to be discussed with the bursaries team

expenses:travel:bursary:general                               60,000 EUR
    ; to do: to be discussed with the bursaries team

The money is divided at a ratio of 6 to 1.

The typical straight to LGBT+ ratio in society is 10 to 1

The men to women ratio in Debian is 70 to 1

Therefore, the 6 to 1 ratio for travel funding is a bit odd.

They don't give a list of people who received the money so the rest of us don't know how much work those people do.

I have thought about this quite a bit, because obviously corruption is an issue that needs examination.  However, two things stand out in your analysis.  One is that you have identified "men" and "women," when the Debian community is quite clear on avoiding binary gender identification. Second, the "70 to 1" ratio is appalling, and if true, I would readily defend the disproportionate amount of money on "diversity" as woefully inadequate.  It should be at least "6 to 1" in the other direction, to encourage the participation of non-straight white males in the Debian community.

I do not see corruption here.  I see a diverse and inclusive community attempting to fulfill their stated goals.

pocock

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2025, 12:49:20 pm »
I do not see corruption here.  I see a diverse and inclusive community attempting to fulfill their stated goals.

I do not see enough information to be sure either way

In the business world and in sport, we set a goal and we decide how to measure results before the initiative begins.

I was both mentor and administrator in the various programs for internships and diversity and I never recall anybody making goals at the outset or measuring results at the conclusion.

In the financial crisis, the Fed chief Ben Bernanke spoke about dropping money from helicopters.  The Fed has the power to print the money and if they don't have enough helicopters, they can print money to buy helicopters too.  In Australia, people are joking the Securency scandal went even further, they speculate the company printed money to bribe foreign governments to have Australia make their anti-counterfeit banknotes.  But as they are the ones with the trademark for anti-counterfeit polymer banknotes, we can't officially say the bribe money was counterfeit.  Despite having those incredible powers, the Fed and the people who run bribery schemes have a lot of very qualified people ready to measure the quantitative impact of their programs.

The free software organizations appear to drop money from helicopters but without any measuring.  There is a perception and some anecdotal evidence to suggest at least some beneficiaries are related to the helicopter pilots.

The first step is to ask people, before the application process opens, what is the goal of giving money to Outreachy or diversity travel tickets?

The second stop is to ask people, before the application process opens, how will we measure success at the end of the year/semester/season/conference or whatever period?

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TimKelly

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2025, 01:37:07 pm »
First, I would like to thank Raptor CS for allowing these discussions. When I first started having conversations with Raptor about viewpoints and inclusiveness, they expressly stated that they "are not in the censorship business."

Second, I am probably one of the few people around that recognize the use of analogies as illustrative, even if they are rather divergent.

However, getting back to the concerns about how the money is being distributed, the "70 to 1" male to female ratio keeps jumping out.  I have the sense that some of your concerns stem from a belief that funds should be distributed in a manner that maintains "fairness," i.e., 70 times more funds should be disbursed to males than females.  I would suggest the reverse should be practiced, until there is something resembling a level playing field.  I am, of course, reminded of the adage "Equality looks like oppression to those accustomed to privilege."

As for quantifying outcomes, given Debian's emphasis on avoiding binary gender identities and sexual orientations, this may be difficult to do.  For example, Cuba eliminated race as a statistical category in their census.  As a result, their health outcomes can not be tracked by race.  It appears to lead to more equal outcomes (as in, everyone complains equally).

I would suggest approaching Debian's leadership with a method to quantify the outcomes without any (zero!) reference to gender and sexual preferences.  They may be more receptive than what you have experienced to date.  Certainly non-profits have a requirement for full transparency, and improper power dynamics are to be avoided.  But it would certainly not be the first time humans have acted in their own self-interest, and in my experience, this transcends race, sexual orientation and gender identity.  References to such are irrelevant and prejudicial. 

pocock

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2025, 02:48:15 pm »

When I talk about setting goals or quantifying results, I have never actually made any personal recommendation about how to do so, whether to use binary gender identity, disability, race or whatever as a factor.

I want to emphasize that point: when I was part of that team in Debian, we never even started a discussion about goal setting, we never even began to talk about which metrics are relevant.

Personally, I have no bias and no agenda for or against the gender questions, race, religion, age or any other personal characteristic.

Fact check the DebConf19 photo:

- the outgoing leader is sitting at a table with four women from Albanian heritage, the two women sitting closest to him are from Albania, the other two are Kosovan

- a few weeks later, the woman sitting closest to the leader won the Outreachy internship

- the woman next to her was given a job at GNOME Foundation

- after Outreachy, the first woman subsequently got a job at Wikipedia and then another job at GNOME

I don't want to give my personal speculation about that.  I just ask that you think about this: when you give all those facts to other women, do those women feel motivated to make technical contributions to Debian?  Or do they feel suspicious about the way Debian advances women?  Debian does not publish any data about the selection process, so I can't tell you how these situations evolved.  All I ask you to think about is how other women feel when they see these facts in the correct order.
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TimKelly

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2025, 03:19:04 pm »

Personally, I have no bias and no agenda for or against the gender questions, race, religion, age or any other personal characteristic.


I have read your web site extensively.  I do not agree with your assessment of your personal views.  Allow me to quote a specific example:

(quote)

Second, in 2018, Zini went to DebConf18 and gave a talk called "Multiple people" where he talks about having relationships with other men.

    "During the last year, I have been thinking passionately about things such as diversity, gender identity, sexual orientation, neurodiversity, and preserving identity in a group."

The last phrase, "preserving identity in a group", reveals a lot. Zini and other members of the group are screening Debian collaborators based on a very distorted worldview that only seems to tolerate the people they would be willing to sleep with.

(end quote)

https://danielpocock.com/en/phil-wyett-evidence-debian-zizian-plagiarism-moderm-slavery/

I see nothing in the statement from the quote of Zini that leads to your conclusion about their sexual behavior.  Rather, I see a screening process that looks for beliefs and values consistent with Debian's Code of Conduct. Characterizing this as "a very distorted worldview" is rather subjective and prejudicial, and directly contradicts your statement about your personal views.

There are quite a few similar posts on your web site.  Another example: On your web site, you draw a lot of connections to Debian and the Zizian movement, including their violent crimes.  I can not find any evidence Zizi speaks for Debian.  I would compare it to the Reiser file system, written by Hans Reiser, who murdered his wife.  No one seems to say Hans Reiser spoke for Linux, or that Linux is clearly violent towards women. (Note that "Zizi" is not to be confused with "Zini" above.)

Rather than cite additional statements that contradict your statement above, I return to my original encouragement that readers of this forum consider Daniel's statements in the context of his web site and the full breadth of his statements he makes there.  I fully support Daniel's rights to have his views, and to bring forth concerns he might have about Debian to this forum, but reasonable discourse requires an examination of his statements, including looking into supporting evidence as well as other statements that give insight into his beliefs.  I do not feel Daniel's statements hold up to scrutiny, and I disagree with them.

pocock

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2025, 03:57:38 pm »
I do not feel Daniel's statements hold up to scrutiny, and I disagree with them.

Coming back to business:

Add up all the money Debian allocated to "diversity" over the years.

Then tell us: what did they get for that money?

What did we get for that money?

Could they spend the same money in a different way and get a better outcome?

And how can we even answer that question if we don't know the outcome we are aiming for?

The word "diversity" is not a measurable outcome.  Diversity is just a word.
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TimKelly

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Re: Phil Wyett & Debian harassment
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2025, 05:58:33 pm »

Add up all the money Debian allocated to "diversity" over the years.

Then tell us: what did they get for that money?

What did we get for that money?


I completely agree with you, Daniel, if that "70 to 1" men to women ratio is true.  If it is true, then the diversity efforts at Debian are a complete failure.

As I mentioned, in addition to my B.Sc. in physics and 30+ years of programming computers, I have a graduate degree in Resource and Environmental Management, with three peer-reviewed publications in the field.  My education included in-depth training in corruption, power dynamics and equity, as well as six months in the field (or in my case, logging sites).  Several items come to mind.

The choices of how to implement a diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) program seeking to recruit members of diverse communities should reflect the commitment to DEI.  The people chosen to design and implement the DEI program should reflect the community diversity.  There are many principles that can be followed to ensure equity is practiced and diversity is embraced.  Basically, straight white males should be a part of the process as stakeholders, but have a disproportionately small voice in the process.  The straight white males involved in the process should acknowledge the goals of the DEI initiative and facilitate the efforts of non-straight white males as supportive roles, not management ones.

Specifically, the head of such diversity programs should not be a straight white male.  It sends the entirely wrong message.  Rather, it should be a non-straight white male with professional training in DEI efforts.  Being able to program C code is not qualification for this position.  (In fact, an effort to understand the people side of things is why I pursued the above degree, and I encourage programmers to pursue an education in human-based fields as a matter of establishing bona fides when offering opinions on diversity, equity and inclusion.)

Mentors should be screened for their commitment to the DEI effort.  It is easy to undermine such efforts with disparaging remarks which focus on gender identity and sexual orientation.  While straight white males can make good mentors, it is only after sufficient training in DEI that this should be allowed.  After such training, not before it, being able to program C code would make one a candidate for applying for mentoring positions.  The training process should screen out candidates who might be great programmers but would be terrible mentors in a diversity program.

Among the mentors, the dialog and conversations about power dynamics should be closely monitored.  An example that comes to mind is the support RMS received after his very harmful statements about consent, in the context of what Marvin Minsky was doing in association with Jeffrey Epstein.  While RMS has apparently had a change of heart and expresses contrition, I have absolutely no doubt that his comments at the time drove off people who disagreed with him and supported the real victims, the very young girls that were recruited for Epstein.  Congruently, mentors who express support for RMS based on his contributions to the GNU operating systems and ecosystem are also likely to drive off the people whose needs are being addressed by DEI initiatives.

I would advise screening out mentors with clear associations to religious organizations which have a long history of intolerance towards LGBTQ+ communities.  These individuals may be well-intentioned, but it is simply too much to ask for trust, especially if the religious organization also has a long history of covering up sexual abuse by its leaders in positions of power over vulnerable members.  Rather, those individuals can likely contribute greatly by providing programming exercises and training material to be used by the mentors who work directly with the individuals coming from diverse and potentially vulnerable communities.  Those mentors with a clear commitment to DEI will understand the need to work in supportive roles and not directly with people being mentored.

From my training, we learned that the solution looks a lot like the people who get to choose the people to solve the problem.  If a group of straight white males are in charge of choosing who gets to implement the DEI program, the DEI program is not going to have a lot of diversity.  Perhaps that is where Debian failed, and has a 70 to 1 male to female ratio?

Perhaps, Daniel, you could help Debian by investigating the causes of the 70 to 1 male to female ratio, examine the demographic profile of the people who got to choose the people that developed the program, and to seek out pro bono help from DEI experts who might be able offer professional-level management of such a program.