Phil Wyett & Debian harassment

[pocock]

I have absolutely no doubt that his comments at the time drove off people who disagreed with him and supported the real victims, the very young girls that were recruited for Epstein.

His comment was actually cut in half and then replayed to people out of context.

When you look at the full email that RMS wrote about the situation, he had acknowledge earlier in the same paragraph that the women were under a coercive influence.

Sadly, the whole Internet works like that today, people are quoted out of context and then mailing lists are censored so that people can't correct things.  It happens over and over again.

Congruently, mentors who express support for RMS based on his contributions to the GNU operating systems and ecosystem are also likely to drive off the people whose needs are being addressed by DEI initiatives.

People were not only expressing support based on his contributions.  People express support based on the presumption of innocence.  People have a misunderstanding in their job and they have a beer together with their colleagues and they clarify the situation and move on.  In these online communities, there are certain people who want the power to have something akin to capital punishment, to completely destroy people.

Perhaps that is where Debian failed, and has a 70 to 1 male to female ratio?

We can't say they failed because we don't actually know what their goal was.  It was something like "GNOME has this internship thing, we should do it too"

Perhaps, Daniel, you could help Debian by investigating the causes of the 70 to 1 male to female ratio, examine the demographic profile of the people who got to choose the people that developed the program, and to seek out pro bono help from DEI experts who might be able offer professional-level management of such a program.

There are some clues about the problem.

Look at the men working alone at their computers without pay.

Diana von Bidder wrote an email about it after her husband died on our wedding day.  "I was glad that he was not only sitting alone in front of his computer"

There is some evidence that women are more inclined to be productive in social environments whereas men are comfortable working for extended periods alone.  Things like this may be a factor in how men and women spend their free time.

Therefore, rather than spending money to mentor and manipulate women to behave more like men, the objective of diversity may be more achievable if the way we work is overhauled.

A lot of genuine female developers also have social and economic pressure, for example, women's salaries are lower so they can't pay for a trip to a conference.  How many female developers can spend their vacation at DebConf if their boyfriend or husband is not interested in Debian too?  These social expectations are never really discussed.

But maybe women have a sixth sense for the problems with the Debian culture and they simply stay away from groups like this.

[TimKelly]

I have absolutely no doubt that his comments at the time drove off people who disagreed with him and supported the real victims, the very young girls that were recruited for Epstein.

His comment was actually cut in half and then replayed to people out of context. 

No, I dug up his full comment and read it, and I have watched videos of his meltdowns.  When I find statements that seem particularly extreme, I go and find the original as well as collaborating evidence.  As is the case with many of the situations you discuss on your web site, I do not find support for your conclusions.  I find an agenda that has a particular spin on the situation, one that is not inclusive of diverse populations.  I have already given specific examples, and there are many more.

When you look at the full email that RMS wrote about the situation, he had acknowledge earlier in the same paragraph that the women were under a coercive influence.

And yet in spite of apparently having at least some knowledge of what was occurring, he remained silent.  You see, among a lot of straight white males, someone who scores with very young women is someone who is a hero to them.  I was in and around academia for many years, and I saw first-hand how female students were treated by untouchable faculty.  I also saw those who could have said something remain silent.

People were not only expressing support based on his contributions.  People express support based on the presumption of innocence.  People have a misunderstanding in their job and they have a beer together with their colleagues and they clarify the situation and move on.  In these online communities, there are certain people who want the power to have something akin to capital punishment, to completely destroy people.

In my experience, in online communities and in the real world, the people doing this have almost always been straight white males.  If Debian has a 70 to 1 male to female ratio, I find it highly likely the people doing the destroying in Debian are straight white males.

Perhaps that is where Debian failed, and has a 70 to 1 male to female ratio?

We can't say they failed because we don't actually know what their goal was.  It was something like "GNOME has this internship thing, we should do it too"

You appear to be leaving open that 70 to 1 male to female ratio in a group with explicit goals of including a highly diverse community is a success?  Were straight white males in charge of the diversity efforts?

Therefore, rather than spending money to mentor and manipulate women to behave more like men, the objective of diversity may be more achievable if the way we work is overhauled.

I agree with this statement, but I think it does not go far enough.  Throughout this conversation you have used binary gender pronouns, which is contrary to Debian's way of thinking.  I think the money could be well spent teaching straight white males to be more inclusive of diverse populations.  Maybe equality is having men not being allowed to drop bombs either, instead of letting women do it, too.

[pocock]

And yet in spite of apparently having at least some knowledge of what was occurring, he remained silent.  You see, among a lot of straight white males, someone who scores with very young women is someone who is a hero to them.  I was in and around academia for many years, and I saw first-hand how female students were treated by untouchable faculty.  I also saw those who could have said something remain silent.

Many corporations tell their employees quite explicitly that you can't comment on social issues and bosses often give people strong hints not to put anything in writing that could appear in a future court case.  There are a whole range of rules and bad examples that keep people silent.

I also heard a lot of stories from women and they vary from very mild incidents to extremely serious cases of violence.  But two wrongs don't make a right.  Groups of women or groups of LGBTQ+ people assembling on social media to attack straight white males only contribute to more division.  The proof is clear in the results of the US election: pronouns in email signatures and many similar things were hard to defend in the long term.  All the energy used up fighting for the pronouns could have been put into other campaigns with more long term irreversible benefits.

If anything, the pronouns in email signatures provided a convenient target for the anti-woke agenda to mobilize their counter-movement.

[TimKelly]

Again, you suggest violence comes from diverse groups, when law enforcement agencies have been quite clear - 90% of the violence directed against individuals and groups comes from straight white males with far-right ideologies.

I am a straight white male who embraces diversity and thinks rainbows are beautiful.  My gender identity is not threatened by someone wishing to identify themselves as non-binary. My racial identity is not threatened by someone wishing to identify themselves as not White. My sexual identity is not threatened by someone wishing to identify themselves as not heterosexual.

As for straight while males being offended by pronouns in email signatures, well, one would not have thought people accustomed to calling so many other people "snowflakes" would have such thin skins.  You are correct that the email signatures draw attention by establishing their identity, but "hiding" is not exactly "freedom."  I have only ever been to one place that did not have a stigma of race.  It had only one.  White.

[pocock]

But two wrongs don't make a right.  Groups of women or groups of LGBTQ+ people assembling on social media to attack straight white males only contribute to more division.

Again, you suggest violence comes from diverse groups, when ...

I wrote "attack" in the general sense.

Statistically and historically, you may be right about far right groups made up of straight white males.  This actually happened in Melbourne just the other day.

Nonetheless, a group of transgender people who get together online and decide to make an example of a straight person is evil in its own way.  Even if their activity is entirely online and entirely psychological, it is still bullying and bullying coincides with a whole range of problems from alcoholism, to illegal drugs right up to suicides.

The same goes for women.  Groups of women working together to spread a lie seem to get away with it in the short term.  They celebrate every time some victim loses his job because of a lie.  Over the long term, however, people seem to be less willing to trust women because everybody knows these vendettas are purely political.  Look at how the prosecution of Bruce Lehrmann failed when one of the jurors went online and found a report about women who make false accusations, he printed the report and brought it into the jury room.  The trial was aborted and Lehrmann walked free.

In effect, #MeToo has become the boy who cried wolf, or perhaps the girl who cried wolf to be precise. When confronted with a compelling example of something that looked like a wolf, in the form of Mr Lehrmann, the jury was very hesitant to be 100% certain he was a wolf.

The various groups, including non-binary and women are making a lot of noise and when they get in a group they do attack people in a virtual sense.

[TimKelly]

The various groups, including non-binary and women are making a lot of noise and when they get in a group they do attack people in a virtual sense.

In the cases of where non-straight white males act like straight white males, their behavior is cherry-picked by the far-right as representative of the non-straight white community as a whole.  Humans are human.

Perhaps it would be more productive for you to be critical of the straight white males who actually behave as violent mobs.  For example, you wrote:

"16:30 Tue, 08 Aug 2023

Last week's decision to prosecute Donald Trump for trying to overturn the result of the 2020 US election reminded me of the dirty tricks in the FSFE election process."

https://danielpocock.com/en/donald-trump-fsfe-matthew-kirschner-election-denial/

On January 6th, 2021, Donald Trump gave a speech to his assembled followers in which he said "And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore."  In response, as I and millions of others watched on live television, a violent mob tried to hunt down elected members of Congress and kill them.  Four people died on the day, and at least six more died of injuries and suicide.  We came close to having our democracy ended.

Donald Trump used the word "fight" 20 times in his speech on Jan 6.

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/10/966396848/read-trumps-jan-6-speech-a-key-part-of-impeachment-trial

That is not trying to "overturn" an election. That is actual violence.

Again, Daniel, I believe that your statements about the leadership of Debian and the behavior of non-straight white males have to be considered in the context of statements you have made that suggest traight white males are oppressed when they are told No and it is the victims' fault if they are targeted for harassment because of pronouns in their email signatures. 

I apologize if the above feels like a personal attack, because I do not intend such offense.  I commend you for your efforts to help trafficked Albanian women and to hold the Catholic Church accountable for their truly evil actions in covering up the sexual abuse by their priests.  I think that kind of integrity is in rare supply these days, and I believe that if you understood the basis, means and efforts to make space for all people and worked towards that, you could make significant contributions.

[pocock]

your statements about the leadership of Debian and the behavior of non-straight white males

I'm talking about people from any group who form a group and pick out a solitary victim from the rival side.

I'm not saying that every non-straight-white-male engages in such behavior.  All I'm pointing out is that the Internet allows them to get into subgroups that have the critical mass to conduct bullying.  Some of those subgroups then take the next step and bully somebody, others don't.

The Zizians are an example of the phenomena although they are an extreme case.  Nonetheless, it is fair to suggest the Zizians never would have met each other without the Internet.  The same could be said for some far right groups.  I suspect that without social media, some of those people in far right groups would need a lot more time to find each other and get organized.

The Sovereign Citizens and the Zizians are examples of extremes and the Internet makes it easier for these extreme people to validate each other.

POTUS: We fight like hell.

I also pointed out in another blog the Australian far right had used exactly the same slogan one month before the Trump event.

My comments about FSFE were not intended to diminish other aspects of January 6.  I was simply demonstrating that certain FSFE overlords saw demoracy and voting as optional.  They offered annual elections as a gimmick to try and boost donations.  After one person donated a €150,000 bequest they took the voting away again.

[TimKelly]

I'm not saying that every non-straight-white-male engages in such behavior.  All I'm pointing out is that the Internet allows them to get into subgroups that have the critical mass to conduct bullying.  Some of those subgroups then take the next step and bully somebody, others don't.

I see that your web site documents several suicides and deaths associated with Debian developers.  Suicide rates among trans teens are the highest in the world, everywhere.  They are the constant target of bullying, overwhelmingly by straight white males who have found each other on the internet and unified to spread their hate to whatever target they can find.

I find the cherrypicking of non-straight white males behaving horribly to further your arguments against non-straight white communities to be counter-productive to your message.  As a straight white male, I do not tell non-straight white males how to behave.  They have leaders in their communities who know how to massage the message and lead by example.

Rather, I spend my energy encouraging straight white males to make space for humans of all backgrounds, identities and beliefs (and to consider all people to be human, as no one is "sub-human").  I highlight when straight white males are utilizing phrases that are associated with far-right ideologies, which have always been violently opposed to communities who do not look like them.  I discourage straight white males from inflaming anger against and within non-straight white male communities, so that the leaders of those communities have an easier time with the youth from those communities.  I absolutely condemn the use of violence by straight white males (or anyone) against non-straight white communities - or anyone! 

Daniel, I think if you would let go of focusing on the behavior of non-straight white males and focus on encouraging straight white males to be more accepting of diversity, a lot of people would hear your message and be receptive to it.  I understand you have committed a lot of time to Debian, and do not like the way it is headed, but that is the nature of group dynamics.  If you want to change Debian from within, you are going to have to radically change your messaging. If this is not within your abilities, you may have to face the need to leave a group that no longer reflects your values.  If you have to, I encourage you to do so respectfully and to not tear down what this group of diverse and inclusive people are trying to accomplish.  I would also like to say that if you do change your messaging, you are very likely to find a group of people who are vastly more tolerant of diversity, including your own version of it, than many other operating system groups.

I would like to respectfully end this discussion, as I believe we have reached its conclusion.

[TimKelly]

My apologies, but one last post. I wasn't even looking for information on Daniel, just reviewing the Debian web site for older versions, but apparently Daniel registered the Debian trademark in his name in another country and registered 14 different domains that violated the true Debian trademark.

https://www.debian.org/legal/pocock2

I retract my statement that Daniel might find the Debian community receptive to him.  He appears to be engaging in a hostile takeover of the project, rather than forking and going on his own.

Dude, WTF?

[pocock]

You are a victim of social engineering ...

and registered 14 different domains that violated the true Debian trademark.

Under copyright law, every co-author has a right to use the trademark.  The UDRP calls it legitimate interest.  People also refer to this as fair use.  For example, you can use the names of your previous employers on your CV and you don't need permission to use those names.

Fact check: over 2,743 domain names contain the Debian trademark (DNSlytics)

Therefore, the fact they only attack the 14 web sites where I publish my Debian work suggests they are censoring.  If this was about trademarks then they would dispute all 2,743 domain names.

hostile takeover of the project

A hostile takeover would require taking control of debian.org and taking control fo the private keys for the Debian archive keyring.  If any developer tried to obtain either of those things then I hope somebody would provide a very public and factual explanation of how it happened.  If neither the debian.org domain name or the private keys have ever been compromised then there has never been any "hostile takeover".

What we see are people who can't tolerate differences of opinion.  In other words, they behave like a cult.

[TimKelly]

No.  Copyright and trademark laws require Debian to defend their registered trademarks against dilution by similar works.  If they had failed to do so for your registrations you could have then attempted to gain control of the larger trademark on the grounds they did not defend it.  That is the hallmark of a truly hostile takeover.  You did not appeal the decision in the country in which you filed the trademark and instead declared your business bankrupt.

You have regularly mischaracterized events in Debian in this forum and regularly used far-rightwing phrases and dog whistle strawman arguments on your web site.  On your web site you have made statements that border on support for anti-democratic strongman authoritarian figures.  You are attempting to recruit others for your efforts, but you have not posted in good faith and have an ulterior agenda. 

You have found the exact line between free speech and libel.  You make defamatory statements about Debian which have enough factual basis and wording you can claim you truly believe these statements, while avoiding the legal definition of libel, which is where you knowingly make false statements for the intent to defame another party. When faced with the fallacy of your arguments and facts that directly dispute your interpretation, you resort to claiming I and others are under the spell of a cult.

Dude, just, no.

[pocock]

dilution by similar works

None of the web sites contain any rival products.  I don't distribute any modified Debian ISO and I don't even make up my own Debian t-shirts.  Some people are doing things like that, not me.

The Debian Social Contract, point 3 tells us we will not hide problems.  Registering a Debian domain name and publishing copies of messages from debian-private is not "dilution".

You did not appeal the decision

I cancelled the trademark.  Therefore, there was no valid decision about the trademark because it is cancelled. A judge can not transfer a trademark once it is in the cancelled state.

Moreover, if the Debian trademark was canceled, there is no "appeal" because that would imply I wanted to un-cancel the trademark.  It is not possible to un-cancel a trademark.

declared your business bankrupt

I never declared my business bankrupt.  The Swiss entity is in liqudiation.  That is a normal procedure for closing a company.

If a business pays all the legitimate debts during the liquidiation then it does not go through a bankruptcy procedure.

Bankruptcy procedures only occur for businesses that don't pay their debts.  Anybody claiming I don't pay legitimate debts is committing libel.

Business owners are free to open and close company registrations when they want and for any reason.

In my case, the liquidation of the Swiss legal protection insurance undermined my confidence in Switzerland as a corporate jurisdiction.

You have found the exact line between free speech and libel

Look at the stories they created about Dr Jacob Appelbaum in 2016.  They started this pattern of creating libel.  It does not originate with me.

If you read through all the hundreds of messages about Dr Appelbaum on debian-private then you might become even more concerned than I am.  What they did to Dr Appelbaum was truly evil.

[pocock]

I just want to repeat a comment I made much earlier in this discussion:

I do not see enough information to be sure either way

In many of these discussions about Debian, people only see 1% of the information.  99% of the information is hidden in debian-private and private IRC chats.

The PGP keys for Dr Norbert Preining and I were removed in 2018.  That was a period when I lost two family members.

The trademark was only registered in 2022.  The 14 disputed domain names were only registered in 2022.  Therefore, none of these things have anything to do with them violating the privacy of my family in 2018 when they removed the PGP keys and started spreading rumors by email and social media.

The fact that they keep making so much noise about the trademark, which was only registered four years after the fact, only confirms they didn't have any serious reason to hurt my family and I in 2018.

[TimKelly]

None of the web sites contain any rival products.  I don't distribute any modified Debian ISO and I don't even make up my own Debian t-shirts.  Some people are doing things like that, not me.

Allow me to quote from the Tribunal Cantonal of the Canton of Vaud (Switzerland) judgement (https://www.debian.org/legal/pocock2-judgement.pdf, found on the page dedicated to Debian's statement https://www.debian.org/legal/pocock2):

"3. Entre 2020 et 2022, Daniel Pocock, notamment au travers de la défenderesse, a procédé à l’enregistrement de plusieurs noms de domaines internet comportant le terme « Debian » : debian.chat, debian.news, debian.finance, debian.team, debian.guide, debiangnulinux.org, debianist.community, debian.plus, debian.video, debianproject.org, debianproject.community et debiancommunity.org."

I don't understand French, but I sure understand the intent of those domains.

The Debian Social Contract, point 3 tells us we will not hide problems.  Registering a Debian domain name and publishing copies of messages from debian-private is not "dilution".

Allow me to quote from the World Intellectual Property Organization judgement, found at https://www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/search/text.jsp?case=D2024-0770 as linked by the above statement from Debian:

"Actually, the Complainant’s linked trademark policy on the DEBIAN Project website includes the following provision:
'When You Can NEVER Use the Debian Trademarks Without Asking Permission
1. You cannot use Debian trademarks in any way that suggests an affiliation with or endorsement by the Debian project or community, if the same is not true.
2. You cannot use Debian trademarks in a company or organization name or as the name of a product or service.
3. You cannot use a name that is confusingly similar to Debian trademarks.
4. You cannot use Debian trademarks in a domain name, with or without commercial intent.'"

And one more quote from the WIPO decision:

"On April 30, 2024, while this Decision was in process, the Respondent sent an email notifying the Center that the Respondent had filed to stand for election for the European Parliament as a member from Ireland. The Respondent states that the Complaint 'appears to be a cyber attack', possibly designed to interfere with the European election, and asks the Center to suspend the UDRP proceeding to avoid 'election interference'."

Daniel, I am not going to mock you, and I ask that no one else do, either.  I don't see anything there to mock.  I see something that says you need help.  One of my best friends when I was a teenager had a brother with some serious mental health issues that resemble the obsessive paranoia you exhibit.  I've seen it do a lot of damage, and his brother was probably the least happy person in it all.  He didn't choose to be that way, but he also didn't choose to get help, either. 

Daniel, please choose to get help.  I want you to be successful in your efforts to help exploited Albanian women and to hold the Catholic church accountable for covering up their evil.

That's the irony, isn't it? Debian is possibly the most inclusive of OSes and actively concerns itself with the mental health of its community, and Daniel turned on it.

[pocock]

The Swiss Intellectual Property Institute said that the so-called "judgment" is not relevant or valid because I canceled the trademark.  Therefore, things you are quoting are irrelevant.  The judge retracted it and annulled his previous correspondence.

When you try to work out why they started the attacks against my family in 2018, looking at an invalidated judgment from 2023 will not help you because it was only created five years after they attacked my family.    Therefore, things you are quoting are irrelevant.

linked by the above statement from Debian

Debian Developers are joint authors under copyright law.  We are not employees and the Debian leader is not an employer.  So we can't give each other orders.  We can ALWAYS use the Debian trademark in cases of fair use and legitimate interest.  The WIPO web site says that in the UDRP. 

They told us that in the UDRP: Here it is.  The term "legitimate interests" is repeated many times.  Joint authors always have a legitimate interest in using the name of Debian because we all helped create it together.

If you are an employee of a company then you sign an employment contract and the contract usually has a paragraph in it where they tell you that you give the employer full copyright in all the code that you create.  That is why employees don't have legitimate interest but open source developers do have a legitimate interest in using the trademark.

resemble the obsessive paranoia you exhibit

If you are a landlord, as long as you own the property, you want to collect rent from the property.  Is that obsessive?

If you are an author, or in the case of a joint author of an open source product, you always have a right to recognition.

Some of the misfits started undermining my right to recognition in 2018.  I will never consent to somebody taking my name off the list of authors just as a landlord will never consent to somebody just moving in to a house without paying rent.

Debian is possibly the most inclusive of OSes and actively concerns itself with the mental health of its community

Why did one of the other developers die on our wedding day?  Why do we find his name on a petition about suicide in Kanton Basel?

Read the resignation letters from other people who quit.  You are contradicting many people who worked on Debian for years.  If you were not there working on Debian with us, if you did not read debian-private, and if you are not a doctor, why do you now consider yourself an expert on both Debian and mental health?

Your insinuation that other people can retrospectively extinguish our copyright after we did the work is an absurdity.